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Message |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 10:54 am: | |
Does anyone else suffer from a really sore elbow? I'm not sure my problem is caused by hammering, but is sure is becoming difficult to grip and swing a hammer. I'm taking lots of Ibuprofen and leaving the hammer alone for a little while but I have a lot of work ahead of me. |
Michael Graf (Ghs)
New member
Username: Ghs
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 12:27 pm: | |
If you do not get adequate answer here try the theForge ABANA's web email list.
There have been some lengthy and informed discussions there in the past.
I know there are things that you can do both with your hammer grip and some exercises both for warm up and conditioning that should help you out.
As in many cases I didn't need it then so didn't pay enough attention . Unfortunately that doesn't do you any good now. |
Ken Scharabok (Ken_scharabok)
New member
Username: Ken_scharabok
Post Number: 299
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 4:47 pm: | |
Called 'blacksmith's elbow'. As I understand it, it is very similar to 'tennis elbow', but more closely related to 'Little League' elbow. Just depends on which tendons or such are inflamed. Was told it was once common among nail and hammer carpenters.
Had it back when I first started blacksmithing as a hobby. Took about six months of leaving the hammer alone for it to work its way out.
One thing you can do to help is to keep the hammer arm eblow into the body. Almost touching it.
When my hands or elbows start to hurt, I quit for the day on forging - and, man, a powerhammer is wonderful in that regard. |
Steve Arial (Hammer_of_thor)
New member
Username: Hammer_of_thor
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 2:01 am: | |
One exercise I was told about to aid tennis elbow sufferers was to wrap an elastic band around the extended fingers of the affected arm and attempt to repeatedly stretch the band by opening and closing the fingers. This is supposed to strengthen the muscles opposite the ones causing the pain. Can't tell you if this really works but might be worth a try. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 7:07 am: | |
Thanks for the suggestions guys. So far Ibuprofen and staying away from the hammer for a few days is having some effect. I can't afford to give up 6 months. I will try the fingers elastic band exercise, can't hurt, already does. |
Francis Cole (Trez)
New member
Username: Trez
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 10:22 am: | |
check the height of your anvil as well. that will add to the improper use of arm |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 7:29 am: | |
My anvil is set at the height most of the books and my instructor suggests, knuckles on the table with arm straight down. I've been doing this weekend hobby for about 4 years and don't recall having this kind of problem before. I suspect something else may be contributing to the agony. I have had tendonitis in the past, before I began blacksmithing. |
Dick Nietfeld (Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop)
New member
Username: Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop
Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 10:55 am: | |
I have had elbow problems in the past and it only went away after about a 6 mo. rest. Not all of us can do that, though. Since then I have lowered my anvil to knuckle height, make sure I keep my thumb off the top of the hammer handle,and primarily hold the hammer loosly as suggested by Uri Hofi. To hold the hammer loosly, one needs to hold the hammer handle between the thumb and forfinger. The other fingers only help guide the hammer in the desired direction. Also the flat of the back of the hand is more horizontal than normal. At one time I also expanded rubber bands with the fingers as was suggested earlier. Hope this helps. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 11:16 am: | |
Thanks Dick I'll try that hammer grip. Things have improved this week but I'm still not 100%. |
Gerald Boggs (Gerald_boggs)
New member
Username: Gerald_boggs
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 8:41 pm: | |
I've gotten the elbow pain, but not from blacksmithing. The cause was this computer. First time, it was the mouse, so I moved it over to the left hand. The second was poor posture while typing. First time it happened I was thinking it was the hammering and so was trying to work around the pain with little success. When I figured out it was the mouse, the pain stopped in a couple of days. Good Luck. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 7:17 am: | |
Gerald, I'm glad to have your input. I've been suspecting the mouse. I've had a shoulder problem in the past that seemed to be related to the mouse. I didn't do any hammering this weekend and my elbow is still quite sore. I did do some work with a chain saw, rode my bicycle for two hours and finally wrestled the snow tires off the car and installed the summer wheels. I'm taking larger doses of ibuprofen and will see if I can manage the mouse with my left hand. |
Gerald Boggs (Gerald_boggs)
New member
Username: Gerald_boggs
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 8:43 am: | |
You're welcome. On the subject of hammer use, I have and am still using the method shown in the CoSira books. Mark Aspery shows the method further refined and in greater detail in his book, along with how he prefers to shape his handles. The method in the CoSira books could be best described as the British way, but it is also the way I learned to hammer from my father as a carpenter. As for carpenters suffering from elbow pain, I never met any, but I have met a few guys that weren't carpenters that gave themselves tendonitis swinging a hammer. Now that I think of it, I've never met a British smith that suffered from tendonitis. |
B. W. Powell (Bernie1)
New member
Username: Bernie1
Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 10:20 am: | |
Well, I knew we would get around to shoulders here eventually. Guys, I'm 80 years old+ and haven't forged in ten. (But intend to soonest I get new setup...). I just had both my shoulders comletely replaced! Called arthroplasty - entire new joints! Result of osteoarthritis - itself usually result of "behavioral lifeways." Which have included (for me): smithing; horseback riding; scuba; (extensive) work with...shovels! (archaeologist); and football! The whole nine yards, no pun intended... Good book for same by anthropologist Larsen: "The Skeltons In Our Closet." It's 'pay me now OR pay me later" in this old World, Good Buddies - but the good news is: the op is no big deal. Done over six month spread (one shoulder at a time) with suitable PT. Recovery 99% (only thing you shouldn't do after:...water ski!) Leaves you with greatest shoulder X-Rays in World, too: two big railroad-spike objects on either side! LOL! Guaranteed to trip the gong in any airport going! But that's okay - we're all smiths here, right? - and what better than big macho shoulder joints to show it! |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:06 am: | |
Now I've gone and done it. After a couple weeks off the elbow was feeling much better. So Sunday and Monday I worked in the shop. The hammering didn't bother much. The first day was fairly light work but Monday I was bending 1" round stock and that was too much. Now I can't lift a beer, with my right hand. The left still works for the purpose. |
mtncrawler (Mtncrawler)
New member
Username: Mtncrawler
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 3:02 pm: | |
Have some of the same issues going on with me and have seen a Dr & PT. I've only recently started BS as a hobby, but have used my right arm/elbow for other sports and home improvements - and of course - computer work. I was really concerned since my elbow started bugging me and I was only JUST beginning my new found hobby. A few treatments recommended to me;
DR:
- Rx for Naproxin. Anti-inflammatory. He could feel the swelling.
- Rest. Move all the computer use (mouse) to left side.
- Stretch. Before and after activity. Palms matched, fingers pointing up, raise elbows to give a good stretch to the wrist /elbow area - hold for 30 sec. Then, opposite direction. Hand out flat (or make a fist), fold at wrist, stretching top tendons. Can also hold palm of hand upside down against wall at a comfortable height - then tilt head to opposite side.
- Ice. Keep that swelling down after use.
PT:
Same ice, stretching and anti-inflammatory use.
- Ultrasound. He acutally hit it a couple times/treatments.
- Stronger anti-inflammatory (forget the name now) used as a "patch" right on the top of teh forearm/elbow area.
- Using a tennis elbow strap (only when using the hammer)
- Directed massage. Lengthen and stretch those muscles/tendons.
I explained to him my intentions on performing blacksmithing more and more and while he cautioned against it in the short-term (let it heal/swelling goes down), he said it'll all be up to how well I take of things before and after activity. the next step is strengthening excercises after the swelling goes down. Unfortunately, some of MY issues are also related to some slight arthritis in the thumb joint. So I need to take care there too.
Good luck with your arm! |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:34 am: | |
Thank you all for your input and advice. I will heed as much of it as possible. With rest and ibuprofen I am recovering quite quickly from the last over exposure. I may do a little light work in the shop this weekend. I do have a tennis elbow strap from a previous (not blacksmithing) injury |
B. W. Powell (Bernie1)
New member
Username: Bernie1
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:01 am: | |
Watch that ibuprofen, Big Guy! Took it for years and years (Advil) no problems at all. Suddenly, one time - poof! - broke out in hives, intense itching behind both knees same time (always ominous as "same place" bilaterally suggestive of systemic involvements). Began to have trouble breathing - ambulance to hospital - by time I got there - was okay again. Diagnosis: allergic to ibuprofen... I avoid it like the plague now - no more probs. Word to wise. Guess it's rare...
Anvilbangr (what's left of 'im). |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 6:03 am: | |
Well a follow up. After a month of doing practically nothing in the shop, I finally got fed up with elbow. Actually it had been acting up for about two months. I went to the doctor yesterday and got a cortizone treatment, a literal shot in the arm. Instant relief from the pain, I will start slow and easy in the shop, maybe this weekend. He also gave me some insturctions for exercises to stretch and strengthen the arm. It had gotten to the point I could barely lift a gallon of milk. I will be careful not to re-injure the elbow and keep in mind all the suggestions here. I have moved the mouse to the left hand and will be careful with my hammer swing. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 12:58 pm: | |
A lot of time has passed and pain has come and gone in waves it seems. Right now I am pain free. I did some stretching and strengthening exercises, I took naproxin(good stuff) and stayed out of the shop quite a bit. Funny thing about this elbow problem, it doesn't hurt to ride my bicycle (1100 miles last year), paddle my kayak on the ocean or cross country ski through the woods. I haven't picked up a hammer in over a month and hardly at all this past winter. I hope the pain is really gone. I will start up gently this spring and I am looking for a treadle hammer if not a small power hammer. Thanks all for the suggestions and support. |
Ken Scharabok (Ken_scharabok)
New member
Username: Ken_scharabok
Post Number: 329
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 3:53 am: | |
On anvil height, it is now generally conceded knuckle height isn't a good rule of thumb. That height was more to benefit the striker than the blacksmith. Try raising your anvil height, say an inch at a time, until you find what works better for you. For example, I've heard bladesmiths may have the top of the anvil up to 6" above knuckle height. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 7:10 am: | |
Ken, is this documented anywhere? I'd like to read up on the subject if possible. |
Ken Scharabok (Ken_scharabok)
New member
Username: Ken_scharabok
Post Number: 330
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 1:09 am: | |
Not documented with any former research I know of. The height of your anvil top should be what works best for you. Don't rely on an old 'rule of thumb' as one-size fits all. |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 6:52 am: | |
Thanks for the input Ken. I just haven't heard about this concept. I'll try jacking up my stump in increments. It's too late to make it longer. |
Michael Graf (Ghs)
New member
Username: Ghs
Post Number: 101
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 11:12 am: | |
Like very many other things in life, blacksmithing is chock full of common wisdom that is useful as such but gets in the way when seen as law.
The "anvil rule" is one of these. It is a good place to start, but I have seen folks working well and happily sitting on the edge of a hole in the ground pounding on an anvil on the ground. I have also seen anvils set almost chest high.
In the end what works for you is the law in your shop. |
Richard Prevost (Ironrich)
New member
Username: Ironrich
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:58 pm: | |
Personally I like my anvil on the high side. The top plate is about wrist joint level. I find this keeps me from over extending the arm at the bottom of the swing. I also find a thinner handle seems to keep me from overgripping. And one last note...cold steel is HARD... work hot. |
Andrew G. Hagemann (Drew77)
New member
Username: Drew77
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 4:26 pm: | |
I know I'm late on this thread, but I just have to add something that everyone had overlooked. I learned the hard way during my apprenticeship at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation that hammer-weight is probably the number-one contributer to joint pain. If you are hurting, drop down to the next-lighter hammer.
What makes the hammer really work for you is the wrist-snap that you impart at the moment of impact. A 32-oz hammer is about the max that anybody who is doing this full-time should swing.
I have a 32-oz hammer that I use on occasion, but not for production work. I perfer to use my 24-oz. hammer. I find that when I do I have more control and don't get pains in my forearm.
If you need to move a lot of metal in a hurry then you need to get somebody to double-strike with you. Better yet, use a power hammer.
Like the old slogan says "Work Smarter, Not Harder." |
Pat Roy (Big_rock_forge)
New member
Username: Big_rock_forge
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 4:22 pm: | |
Hard to believe this thread is still alive. But, here's another thought; it seems my elbows both are sensitive to vibration(that likely isn't the whole problem). Chain saws can quickly become a problem, and a lot of work with a hand held grinder will be an irritant.
As far as hammer weight and swing goes, I started out with a 4# and a 1 1/4# hammer(I now have a larger selection) and had no problem with the elbow for 3-4 years. I was taught not to snap my wrist, just bring the hammer down from shoulder height. I work alone in my shop, no option for a striker, but I have recently aquired a treadle hammer. I have been pain free now for quite a while so we can probably let this thread rest. |