| Author | Message | ||
| Will Mc Donald (Backyard_blacksmith)
New member Username: Backyard_blacksmith Post Number: 117 Registered: 3-2006 |
hi, i'm wondering if there is any variety of plain carbon steel that is richer in carbon than 1095 without getting into strange alloys. i think i heard that steel will not hold more than this (95 points of carbon) without special help from cobalt or something like that but i need to make sure. i have two kinds of steel; an old file and a piece that i know is either 1095 or 1085. the file is returning a richer profile on the grind test than mystery piece, so if i know the upper limit on plain carbon steel, it could help me deduce exactly what i have. thanks for the help. wmcd | ||
| Dick Nietfeld (Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop) New member Username: Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2007 |
Will, as far as I know it is difficult to buy plain carbon steel over about 1095 today. If you want 1095 buy drill rod from any machinist supply house such as ENCO. Many years ago files and straight razors were made with carbon as high as 1.5%. That was about the maximum. Higher than that and it becomes cast iron. I don't think files are over 1 % carbon today. A high carbon steel that knife makers sometime like is the bearing steel 52100 which has about 1% carbon. | ||
| Dick Nietfeld (Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop) New member Username: Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2007 |
Will, old hay rake tines are also 1095, but the steel is probably not refined like that in drill rod. | ||
| Will Mc Donald (Backyard_blacksmith)
New member Username: Backyard_blacksmith Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2006 |
ok, thanks. i think i will use the other peice of metal for my purpose. it's not that the exact carbon content matters to me for the carbons sake so much as knowing how to handle it. i'm shooting for a pretty high performance temper here and the characteristics of the metal i have are what i'm trying to zero in on. am i correct in remembering that carbon steels within say, 30 points of each other handle pretty similarly as far as tempering procedures and all that go? i think i understand that a main difference between 1085 and 1095 shows in pearlite and crystaline formations rather than huge differences in rockwell readings.(please tell me if i'm wrong!) well, thanks again for your time, i hope i am not being confusing here. sometimes i confuse myself.  wmcd | ||
| Dick Nietfeld (Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop) New member Username: Shady_grove_blacksmith_shop Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2007 |
Will, I don't think that the average blacksmith could tell the difference between 1085 and 1095 in the finished product when in use. I'm not even sure an advanced blacksmith could tell the difference in the finished product when in use. | ||
| Will Mc Donald (Backyard_blacksmith)
New member Username: Backyard_blacksmith Post Number: 119 Registered: 3-2006 |
oh thank you! thats something of a load off my noodle. wmcd | ||
| Tim Sutter (Tjs)
New member Username: Tjs Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2008 |
Will, It would be very rare to see any plain carbon steel with carbon higher than 1095. Once you get past the eutectoid composition (Roughly 0.8%C) all the carbon is going to carbide formation. Usually, if you are interested in those kind of structures you would go to an alloy where you would be forming chromium carbides, etc. As for looking at you file composition, you have to assume the file has a great deal of other alloying additions. These will dramatically effect the sparking characteristics. | ||
| Will Mc Donald (Backyard_blacksmith)
New member Username: Backyard_blacksmith Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2006 |
hello again. since I last wrote, i have gone with what i am almost 100% certain is 1085 high carbon steel in the making of what i hope to be the highest quality knife that i have yet produced. so a question for the metallurgists/bladesmiths here: now that i have forged the piece into a bar of quite rough dimensions similar to the finished product, is it advisable to anneal it before starting the more delicate thinning down and shaping or is this not necessary in this stage of the game? after some quite heavy forging i have noticed some small surface cracks appearing and wondered if these were carrying on all throughout the crystal structure. problematic if left to it's own devices, yes? well that's it for now, thanks for bearing with me guys. WMcD | ||
| Tim Sutter (Tjs)
New member Username: Tjs Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2008 |
Will, I'm not a bladesmith but in my past life I forged a lot of different materials. As a general rule, if you are seeing a crack, your forging temperature was too high or too low. The other options are some scale was driven into the surface and gave the appearance of a crack, or finally, that you had a fold over during forging. In any case, whenever I want to make a good forging, if I see a crack-like feature, I would grind it out to see what I was up against. I definitely, would not want to go further without grinding back to sound steel. If you continue to work the material with a crack it is almost certain to fail. | ||
| Will Mc Donald (Backyard_blacksmith)
New member Username: Backyard_blacksmith Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2006 |
tim, this piece that i'm working on started out to be huge compared to its current size and was somewhat rough to begin with. my guess was that as the metal got squeezed down through forging, what started out to be small pits and nicks in the surface became closed and elongated into the small lines that i see now running here and there. i don't think they go more than surface deep though, (i was VERY careful not to work it below bright red)and a thorough debugging with a grinder ought to answer them. what i'm still guessing at is the safety of continuing to forge the blade after surface grinding but not taking the trouble to anneal. thanks so much for all the help. WMcD | ||
| Tim Sutter (Tjs)
New member Username: Tjs Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2008 |
Will, There should be no need to anneal in between hot working sessions. It is advisable when you are bringing it up to temperature to do so slowly to be sure you get a good heat all the way through. It also helps to avoid uneven thermal stresses that can cause cracking. Tim | ||
| Frank Turley (Frank_turley)
New member Username: Frank_turley Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2009 |
The Aisi/SAE steel numbering system has 3 digit, 4 digit (as in 1095), and 5 digit numbers. But it also has a tool steel code, letters combined with numbers. W1 is plain carbon, high carbon tool steel. My old 1970 Bethlehem catalog stated that you could purchase it from 0.70% carbon to 1.3% carbon. Nowadays, it is difficult to find W1 above 1% carbon content. In the long ago days, straight razors were forged of plain carbon steel having 1.4% approaching 1.5% carbon. Therein lies a problem. Above 1.5%, the metal become a cast iron, not forgable. I acquired this info from reading; I do not pretend to be a metallurgist. |
